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Dec 21 11 10:54 PM

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As a lot of other people I think that maybe your cars have too little grip for some reason. Is it the tires? Or maybe something else related to the physics?
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#1 [url]

Dec 22 11 6:24 AM

Am I the only one who thinks this is quite good ?

65's: Ply-bias tires
76's: Slicks (From that era)

As far as I know, it really feels natural and realistic, and I'm one of those who think that V1.0 had too much grip... These are old cars mate, no F1's ! Also, you might be going a lot faster through a corner than you think you're going, and your FOV adjustement can play a role in making you believe you don't have grip (High FOV can make the corners look like they are not tight, when in fact they are)

Just my 2 cents ;)

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#2 [url]

Dec 22 11 10:41 AM

Good point William.

It is all relative. We have feedback from people who have actually been driving the cars depicted in the Mod in real life. They felt the expierence was close to what they were feeling on track.

So everybody says somethng different and everybody expects the cars to behave in a different way.
I am sure though that we will take a look into the slippery-ness.

Maybe Yoshi can have a word on this, he is the expert
greetings

Fear destroys Power

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#3 [url]

Dec 22 11 11:56 AM

Actually I am anything but an expert in tires! But since I'm responsible for the physics of all cars, I'll try to elaborate.

The tires have been done by rFactor's physics guru, Niels_At_Home, and he used as many real data as he could get his hands to. Afterwards, the development of most cars have had real input from the real cars and laptimes comparison (up to the point that rFactor's tracks modelling is able to provide in regards of accuracy).

After all of that, yes, of course, we could be mistaken, but we have done the best to try to bring to your fingertips the feel of those machines, which even being race cars as they are, they would probably feel slippery even after comparing it to a regular road car of 10 years ago, let alone a current one.

Hope this clarifies a bit more your doubts

"Do the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong." - Colin Chapman

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#5 [url]

Dec 22 11 2:04 PM

I'm one of the lot of people that think that the grip of tyres is very very very good.

"To finish first, first you must finish" J.M Fangio
www.campeonatopdlr.com

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#6 [url]

Dec 22 11 8:24 PM

Well I for one disagree. First I tried the recommended settings like I did with version 1 and this time it was even worse. Almost total lack of response of what tires do. Tweaked the scrub n skid sounds to at least hear whats going on and got back to stronger real-feel.
And I started driving on cars from 60s n 70s in real life. Quite disappointed for now as it reminds me at the days of GTR demo was out going back to F1C mods.

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#7 [url]

Dec 22 11 9:54 PM

YoShImUrA wrote:
Actually I am anything but an expert in tires! But since I'm responsible for the physics of all cars, I'll try to elaborate.

The tires have been done by rFactor's physics guru, Niels_At_Home, and he used as many real data as he could get his hands to. Afterwards, the development of most cars have had real input from the real cars and laptimes comparison (up to the point that rFactor's tracks modelling is able to provide in regards of accuracy).


I'm a very good driver myself, and I saw a video of a Cobra289 doing a lap of Laguna Seca in around 1:44.xx. When I tried to do the same with the new Cobras(v1.9) I couldn't get anywhere near that time, in fact I was almost 10 seconds slower, all due to the poor grip of the tires. When I tried the same with the old Cobras(v1.01) I was there! Same time. Please guys, if you're thinking the tires are just right, have a look at this and pay close attention to how those cars behave:

Cobra 289 1964 onboard (HD):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDPfmA4RNd0

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gonzas

Posts: 2,089 Models manager

#8 [url]

Dec 22 11 9:59 PM

in my opinion the feeling of grip in GTR was much better than in GTR2 , they lost realism but make happy more pleople i guess.

wouldn't be better to change the name to "tonsofgripracing" instead of nogripracing ?

Regards.

you can't touch neither my wife nor my .gmts

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gonzas

Posts: 2,089 Models manager

#9 [url]

Dec 22 11 10:08 PM

thanks for the link , very very nice video , but i can recognize the sound of those brakes, and obviously are not the ones used on the 60's, also would like to know if those are using modern recreation of Bias-Ply, Molded-tread vintage racing tires or the real vintage tires.

Regards.

you can't touch neither my wife nor my .gmts

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#10 [url]

Dec 22 11 10:55 PM

[quote="gonzas"]in my opinion the feeling of grip in GTR was much better than in GTR2 , they lost realism but make happy more pleople i guess.

wouldn't be better to change the name to "tonsofgripracing" instead of nogripracing ?

Regards.[/quote]

That explains alot to me. Two opinions on what's a race car.

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#11 [url]

Dec 22 11 11:44 PM

Yet more evidence of how these cars should actually behave:

1966 Shelby GT350 in-car at Road America:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQraQ5uwQhE&feature=related

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gonzas

Posts: 2,089 Models manager

#12 [url]

Dec 23 11 12:20 AM

nice video , Thanks!

yep, diferent opinions.

is true that the cobra is slower in our mod at Laguna seca even if i manage to make 1.48.622.

Regards.

you can't touch neither my wife nor my .gmts

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#13 [url]

Dec 23 11 1:29 AM

Nice vid, but hey, you can clearly see that he is not pushing near enough like you might do in-game ;)

I'm sure that if you just drive around, braking early and being gentle on the throttle, it'll feel the same

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#14 [url]

Dec 23 11 1:31 AM

gonzas wrote:
nice video , Thanks!

yep, diferent opinions.

is true that the cobra is slower in our mod at Laguna seca even if i manage to make 1.48.622.

Regards.


And this is what the guy says in the description
"...legal vintage race prepared, 289 CID engine (actual 295 CID), Top Loader 4 speed, factory 1966 Lincoln front disc/ rear drum brakes, bias-ply Goodyear Blue Streak tires."

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#15 [url]

Dec 23 11 3:54 AM

William Levesque wrote:
Nice vid, but hey, you can clearly see that he is not pushing near enough like you might do in-game ;)

I'm sure that if you just drive around, braking early and being gentle on the throttle, it'll feel the same


Yes but driving gently with the v1.9 Cobras won't get you anywhere near 1:44.xx at Laguna Seca I can garantee you that.

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#17 [url]

Dec 23 11 12:35 PM

hi

about car physics and feelings i should like to ask something ;)

when i had the mod,i have opened some .tbc to see what you did choose to use.

on many cars i saw :
LatPeak=(0.23458829411794,0.652125742126113,13550)
LongPeak=(0.161,0.189,12195)

sinus(0.23) sinus(0.65) = 13° and 40°

so the latpeak "start" at 13° to "finish" at 40°.
as this, the car need to be in "drift" position to find the grip.this is giving the feeling to drive on snow.

it's confirmed in game with the alpine a110. so i searched a car with other value and i find the alpine a310
LatPeak=(0.139111194554692,0.166392329494369,13335)
LongPeak=(0.114556,0.145444,14668.5)

latpeak finish at 9.2° here, and the car feels good on track ;)
awesome car BTW ...congrats !

i'm not a expert at all concerning old tyres ;) but switch from 9° to 40° is really to strong, isn't it ?

congrats and thanks for the new cars, really nice.

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#18 [url]

Dec 23 11 5:31 PM

Regarding the Cobras, A good friend and actually just becoming a newbie to rFactor simracing, is a hillclimb racer in barchettas/open cockpit sport prototypes. Besides that and having a 600hp Ultima GTR, he's got a racing Cobra and he said that the cars are quite predictable and grippy compared to his experience in real life. Take into account those GY Blue Streaks that are being made nowadays have probably been improved in the compounds that they used in the day and that also might be key.
Also regarding laptimes. We all know that rFactor doesn't have that many laser scanned tracks or at least a representative number so that we can use laptimes as a real reference. Although for consistency, we do have tweaked the laptimes in at least one particular track for a series of cars so that we have some references for their performance and real laptimes have been compared to the ones we thought were most accurate.

Regarding tire questions, if Niels_At_Home, who is the one that did the tires wants to answer more in-depth about it...

"Do the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong." - Colin Chapman

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#19 [url]

Dec 23 11 5:39 PM

Looking at just the TBC file it seems we used weird numbers. However, you always must see the bigger picture.

First, our curves start very 'steep' but then take a long time to reach maximum grip. If the maximum is at 20 degrees, you have like 92% grip already at 10 degrees.

The 40 degrees slip angle is only at loads that do not occur. In practise for the 1965 cars slip reaches its maximum grip between 12 and 24 degrees. The Mini and Abart have the biggest slip angles, but also the lightest tire loads. So in practise the peak slip angle is about the same as on the bigger cars.

Longitudinal slip also has these curves; so 90% grip is reaches a LONG time before the LongPeak values in the TBC file. But it is very believable for tires to have peak longitudinal slip ratio between 10% and 20%.

There is some tire data for the 1970s. Those are newer tires than on our 1965 cars! So they might be 'stiffer'. The chart below compares this real data to our TC65 Mustang. As you can see they are about identical.

There will be things wrong with our cars, and tire data is not always reliable. But this data shows that we might be in the realistic range of slip angles.

image

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#20 [url]

Dec 23 11 6:58 PM

Niels_at_home wrote:
Looking at just the TBC file it seems we used weird numbers. However, you always must see the bigger picture.



The 40 degrees slip angle is only at loads that do not occur. In practise for the 1965 cars slip reaches its maximum grip between 12 and 24 degrees.



that's why i did say "start" and "finish" ;)

So in practise the peak slip angle is about the same as on the bigger cars.


maybe you don't need to set the peak depending a load we'll never have on track. i mean a slip angle moove on few degrees at the beginning and "blow up" after, generally. put a large range make something too linear i think.

on wich load is setting the graph you put ?

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