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#41 [url]

Dec 26 11 12:44 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hBhFz44aww look at this video ...it seems that ferrari 250 gto is a good car for drift ...and i have noticed in this mod's version a very similar behavior

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#42 [url]

Dec 28 11 11:09 AM

Hmm why couldn't you drift with street RWDs? It's always FWD cars that need some persuading but rears can drift even with 15hp and any susp/tyres if you're brutal enough on gas

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tigeraid

Posts: 210 Betatester

#45 [url]

Dec 28 11 6:56 PM

The way I see it, HGT&TC is now more like Power and Glory than it used to be. That is, the tires are acting more like they did in the 60s and 70s, than modern Vintage Racing tires. If that was HistorX's intention, then it works.

In GENERAL, with a few exceptions, the cars all have the same basic characteristics they always did, but they're now more pronounced because of a lack of overall grip. All the guys over in our league say the same thing. They all drive the same way, but (in general) slower... Braking distances have increased, and how soon/how hard you get back on the power has increased.

I don't really have a problem with it as a whole, the mod is super fun, there's just the odd issue with this car or that car that seems a little off... And that's what patches are for.

Yes, it's a challenge, but last time I checked, racing old cars is a challenge... Most of them DID race with at least some constant form of slip through the corner... Some just did it more than others (E-Type, DB4, etc)...

For what it's worth, I race short track oval, and I've raced on modern radial slicks, old style bias ply slicks, and a treaded (non-DOT) bias ply Hoosier... And in terms of how the big v8 cars drive on the tires, HistorX pretty much nailed it... They just seem like a bit less grip OVERALL. In terms of slip angle and when the tire "lets go", the bias plys feel exactly how they should.

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tigeraid

Posts: 210 Betatester

#46 [url]

Dec 28 11 9:23 PM

Oh also... I'm sure others have mentioned it, but the Pontiac has full camber adjustment while the other T/A cars do not. I'd strongly suggest opening up toe/caster/camber settings for all the cars--after all, that was one of the few things the Trans-Am rules allowed you to change from factory (and the stock Ford geometry was so bad that Shelby sold a template that completely changed the upper arm mounts to improve caster and camber)... And you can see that camber in any vintage T/A video.

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#47 [url]

Jan 9 12 7:36 AM

Love the physics in new HGTC, in previous release I avoided lots of car mainly because they were snaping and spinning all of a sudden, especially ford GT 40.
In new HGTC while cars sliding (a lot) I didnt spin once, I made some crazy slides trough long corners, I crashed etc, but it never was all of a sudden and every time i could actually feel whats going to happen.
Cars are more predictable in that mater, if you going to lose control you know it even before you hear your tires screech.
Also I love the feel or raw power going to the wheels when you push throttle.
I was afraid this feel will be lost after physics change (lots of other mods went trough physics update and in most cases adding throttle feels like there is some kind of smoothing algorithm is applied, which is suppose to improve control over the car and prevent this characteristic rFactor sudden spins, but personally i think it feels worse in most cases)

Also about laguna seca, shelby cobra grip level and times.
While I cant get 1:44 at laguna seca i think it is more fault of a track than HGTC, I remember playing Gran Turismo 2 and 4 and I am pretty sure that speed at which a took corners at laguna seca was more or less the same (GT series always had got tier tracks)
Then I remembered seeing this vid.
While it is a more modern version of a car you can notice the speed at which he going trough corners its pretty much the same as with HGTC and the time its still 1:45 (Unless of course i screwed mph to km conversion then please disregard this post ).

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#48 [url]

Jan 9 12 9:16 PM

Bushi wrote:
Love the physics in new HGTC, in previous release I avoided lots of car mainly because they were snaping and spinning all of a sudden, especially ford GT 40.
In new HGTC while cars sliding (a lot) I didnt spin once, I made some crazy slides trough long corners, I crashed etc, but it never was all of a sudden and every time i could actually feel whats going to happen.
Cars are more predictable in that mater, if you going to lose control you know it even before you hear your tires screech.


I totally agree! Last summer I had the chance to drive this beauty (it belongs to a friend of mine, I hope he'll let me behind the wheel this summer again... )

image

It cannot quite be compared to the one in the mod (it is a '78 with a 400 cui/6,6 l engine and automatic transmission, not a '71 with a 303) and not equipped for racing, but the general feeling is very similar.

Greetings from L├╝beck, Germany
Fabian

DRINK COFFEE!!! Do stupid things faster and with more energy!

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#49 [url]

Jan 17 12 6:21 PM

I see only 1 problem that i cant really understand.
In final of controlled slide may result in sudden grip of front tyres and trying to correct the sudden grip which results in
car swaying side to side it is merely impossible and you end up to wall.
And one thing i noaticed too is when getting downhill it feels like car is too long off of tarmac like the car has no weight.

But overall everything else is superb !

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#50 [url]

Jan 18 12 4:25 AM

I do think some people seem to have an idea that drifting is easier than it really is. If RL drifting was as easy and doable with any RWD car (like some people try to claim), then nobody would have any respect towards pro drifters (since anyone can do that), there wouldn't be a need to modify cars for drifting (since anything RWD can be easily drifted) and people would never lose control of their cars in day to day situations (because they're so easy to control when they've lost grip).

Most cars, even RWD cars, are set up for understeer, because oversteer is difficult to control and bloody dangerous. Learning to do small drifts and powersteer exits isn't a huge step, but proper drifting has to be learned properly, and even then you'll mess up occasionally.

EDIT: FWIW, I've yet to find a car in 1.9 that is particularly hard to keep sideways. Well, the RWDs at least, though the Mini does have nice oversteer when you control it right. =)

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#52 [url]

Feb 14 12 11:02 AM

I was about to make some comment about the tire file being off , until I put up my BRD 270 degrees ( non FF ) and started using my G27 wheel and the manuals recommendation WOW !! What a difference that made.
Now the TA,s handle like I know they should after building and driving a real 69 Z28 in 1970. It was setup for road racing. The sim Camaros handles just like I was there drive it once again Deja vu !
I would like to see some more adjustablity on the suspension on the cars that are restricted , like caster for example. I know from being around racing then, we made our own parts when legal and necessary to be competitive .
I have helped on some of the mods myself and know how difficult it can be to work out the bugs and get it just right.
THX for all the midnight oil your team has put in.
If this mod makes it to rF2 someday WHOOOOOOOOOOO!!

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#54 [url]

Feb 15 12 9:29 PM

Now the TA,s handle like I know they should after building and driving a real 69 Z28 in 1970. It was setup for road racing. The sim Camaros handles just like I was there drive it once again Deja vu !


Good to know. I have been a bit skeptical about the TAs, as somehow I feel that they are too soft suspension-wise. I know those cars are very heavy and even in racing the us cars used softer suspension than european counterparts (Mainly due to US tracks being way more bumpy) but still they felt to me too soft.

Glad they are correct, and I hope that soon the horrible double wishbones on the rear of some cars are replaced by the proper swing axle in the patch

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#55 [url]

Feb 15 12 11:01 PM

McLowry wrote:
Now the TA,s handle like I know they should after building and driving a real 69 Z28 in 1970. It was setup for road racing. The sim Camaros handles just like I was there drive it once again Deja vu ! !!


i love this statement. ive owned 3 1969 camaros in stock form in real life. all of them with built drivetrains for the street with suspension mods. if you know 1st generation F-bodies at all.... these cars feel very close to real from my experience as well.

if you watch vintage footage of TA or any SCCA racing from 67 on, youll see they 4 wheel drift thru a lot of apexs. even can-am cars of the era will drift for certain lengths and they had the largest tires available anywhere at that time.

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#56 [url]

Feb 16 12 2:04 PM

Hitman_M3 wrote:
Good to know. I have been a bit skeptical about the TAs, as somehow I feel that they are too soft suspension-wise. I know those cars are very heavy and even in racing the us cars used softer suspension than european counterparts (Mainly due to US tracks being way more bumpy) but still they felt to me too soft.
It's not just the bumpy roads. Slippery tyres require soft suspensions. If you don't have downforce or really grippy rubber to give you grip, about the only option you've got is to make the suspension soft. Making it stiffer will make it sharper and more reactive, but also more slippery.

BTW, I love those T/A cars. I spent 4 hours just driving around Sebring using the same tyres for almost all of the session. At the end all my tyres were red, around 80-90 percent worn and very slippery, yet I was still able to shave off tenths from my best time, because it required me to be very smooth with them. Before changing new tyres in I had shaven of 8 seconds from my first "fast lap" where I felt I'd done pretty good, and after I changed new tyres for the last couple of laps I shaved another two off again. Just incredible fun to drive those cars. =)

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#57 [url]

Apr 21 12 1:45 AM

As a racing possesed kid of the 60's this mod is perfect for what I long to race. I have always thought the tires on all the cars were on the slippery side no matter what angle you pitch the cars to. However I've also found that game equipment can play a big role.
As a suggestion I'd like to see the steering lock on all the cars go to a minimum of 6. This way the guys with the old 90 degree wheels can adjust down below the usual 10 or 12 so they are not constantly turning the wheel too far and losing tire grip. I have helped with physics in several mods and have found this and a low minimum brake adjustment can really help driving these grip challenged 60's and early 70's cars.
The physics seem to be adjustable enough on all the cars to get some sort of enjoyment out of driving them as well. I don't take the default setups as gospel so if you work with the cars long enough you'll get there.
I guess the "unrealistic" part of the tires is when I'm below 25 mph and they have no lateral grip. It's like being on ice. I've driven 60's street cars back in the 60's on street bias plys that had better grip.
Honestly I think you guys are real close to recreating the feel of these cars that none of us have ever driven but this is a game for fun and I would think that if the tires stuck a bit better the "fun" factor would go way up.
I've been driving the 71 Javelin at Mont-Tremblant and am at 2:04+ lap times. The fastest I've seen is a 2:02. If this version of the track is anything close to the real thing I'm only 18 seconds off Donohue's best race lap from the '71 race there..... Obviously I'm not an "alien" driver but......
I guess my question is, would you ever think about increasing the tire grip and sacrefice a little bit of "perceived" reality for a lot more "fun" factor?
Great job with this mod and continued success with it!!!

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#58 [url]

Apr 21 12 2:38 PM

Agree with pn6, the Transams behave very well and realistically, but probably a bit more tire grip would be in order. The real laptime those cars made back then should be a good comparison, even if with a reasonable margin for inaccurancies on the track, etc.

So, 5 seconds would be reasonable, but 18 ... seems instead to confirm that the cars have too low grip.

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#59 [url]

Apr 21 12 6:06 PM

I am pretty torn up about those "increase grip" suggestions and here is why.

I think current grip level is what makes HGT&TC so much better than previous version (Or many other mods out there)
While its pretty demanding it allows for more predictable control and power-sliding trough the corners with all cars without losing control which is rare in rFactor.
Its also something that makes HGT&TC feel very unique comparing to other mods.

I would hate to see HGT&TC go back to strong grip level it once had, yet I dont know how realistic current level of grip is so if more realistic would be to increase grip for some cars I am all for it just don't raise grip for every car just for the sake of fun.
I am able to go in and out of corners with good speed without sliding, its all matter of proper speed and attitude.
And whats more I am able to do it with speed that is appropriate for this corner, what makes me to believe that grip level is pretty realistic as much as game engine allow for anyway (I know what speed is appropriate for the corner by either looking for movies from races particular car/particular track or I just know by comparing with other games like Gran Turismo which have very accurate tracks)

pn6 wrote:

As a suggestion I'd like to see the steering lock on all the cars go to a minimum of 6.

Yeah adjustable steering lock would be cool even if its just for sake of drifting with chargers and plymouths
pn6 wrote:

I've been driving the 71 Javelin at Mont-Tremblant and am at 2:04+ lap times. The fastest I've seen is a 2:02. If this version of the track is anything close to the real thing I'm only 18 seconds off Donohue's best race lap from the '71 race there.

I dont know how accurate the track in the question is but from my experience I get realistic times at some tracks and I am even 10 seconds behind WR's at others.
There is really a lot of factors, even if track have corners modelled right it still need to have right proportions and everything.
I remember trying Cobra at Laguna Seca, I went trough the corners with speed/line almost identical to what driver in video I used for comparison had, yet I was 5 sec behind him.
While at some other courses I was faster than I should have been, there is really no consistency with the same car you can be slower at one track and faster at the other simply because there is more than just mere grip level of the car that is matters.

So as I said, if more realistic would be to increase grip for some cars I am all for it just don't raise grip for every car just for the sake of fun (I am having lots of fun with current low grip anyway).

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#60 [url]

Apr 21 12 9:30 PM

The increase in grip should actually be very small. What I find most annoying is the very low speed one, it feels weird to slide out as if driving over soap at human walking speeds . when the speed increases things get better, yet still I think the cars beg for some more grip -not enough to change how they behave, but enough to prevent such incoherencies.

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